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Post by pm on Jan 13, 2013 18:22:55 GMT -5
Hey folks, I just discovered the SUMPOD and I am amazed what this machine looks like and does for the statet money. The only alternative is the SOLIDOODLE, but it is very expensive to get one to germany... so the SUMPOD seams to be a good bet. But now i have read all of your concerns about Richards "customer service" and about the time some of you waited to get a SUMPOD in your hands. Some of you even canceled their order. Do you guys think that it is a good idea to order a SUMPOD Basic or maybe wait for the SUMPOD Delta? I'm very uncertain of paying so much money in advance and not really knowing if I ever will get what I paid for... Thank you for your time Cheers, Patrik
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Post by airtripper on Jan 13, 2013 19:41:08 GMT -5
I would ask Richard if he would agree to supply you with just the MDF parts and screws so that you can get the electronic bits yourself.
With the MDF parts I would also ask for the lead screw rod with the nut to fit the Z axis MDF parts. These parts should be easy to supply without delay since they are not affected by import problems like with the electronics.
Mark
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Post by pm on Jan 14, 2013 5:39:22 GMT -5
Thanks, I wrote him - hope he gets back...
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Post by pm on Jan 14, 2013 6:58:46 GMT -5
Richard wrote back:
---- Hi,
new machines are being shipped within the time frame on the website.
Thanks
Richard ----
Is this trustable?
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Post by highcooley on Jan 14, 2013 7:20:59 GMT -5
Hey Patrik,
As Mark mentioned, the main problem for the delays are probably the electronic components. A hardware only version should hopefully ship faster. Just agree on a shipping date with Richard.
One thing to consider in comparison to the solidoodle is, that the sumpod basic is a kit and not a plug-and-play machine which comes configured and tested. In my experience, you need some basic technical skills to do minor adjustments by yourselves (drilling, filing, sanding, soldering).
I personally would not wait for a sumpod delta at the moment. The odds to get a machine with teething problems are quite high, as we haven't seen a working sumpod delta so far.
What I could offer you is my sumpod original, which is similar to the basic version. On the hardware side, the following is different: The MDF cutouts to access the build area are a bit smaller, it is belt and not rack gear driven and it is a dual head version with the latest sumpod hot-ends. The electronics are a RAMPS 1.3 plus arduino board, an LC display and an additional CF card reader. I made the following changes / upgrades: Extruders similar to airtripper's design with MK7 drive gears, a heated bed with borosilicate glass plate as well as airtrippers z axis handle.
It is obviously a used machine with visible marks. On the other hand, I spent days for configuration and optimisation, which could spare you a lot of trouble. However, the printer still does not print reliable enough to me. These are the changes, I would have made next: Upgrade to other hot-ends, as richard's tend to jam too often, design a proper fan mount to cool the hot-ends as well as the print, optimise the bed mount and add a better leveling mechanism.
The reason, why I haven't already done these changes are, that I purchased a Rostock Max by seemecnc.com in the meantime. I needed a change, as I already spent too much time (and a lot of money) on my sumpod. From what I learned from the Rostock build, I now know what I would have to do to make the sumpod work. However, having a working printer now, the motivation to make my sumpod work is not very high at the moment.
PM me, if you are interested. I could also post pictures, if you like.
Cheers, Andy
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Post by pm on Jan 14, 2013 16:13:23 GMT -5
Hey highcooley, wow - that's a great offer! I think I am skilled enough to build a printer by my own with a kit. I have allready built some arduino stuff over the last years and have a qualification as an electrician. But you are absolutely right, having a asembled and adjusted printer is way better for the start than getting frustrated till it print's something The only thing that nags me is "However, the printer still does not print reliable enough to me." - could you explain that some more? I think that I've read your blog allready on my research, but could you post some pictures? Lastly it depends on the price. Right now I'm just curious and want to get more in touch with the whole 3d-printing thing. I met Bre Pettis on a convention in Berlin two years ago, where he presented the makerbot - I was soooo keen I think about printing holders for arduino boards and some kind of cases or something, maybe parts to use in little mechanics or such. Cheers, Patrik
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Post by highcooley on Jan 15, 2013 6:04:28 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply
Let me try to explain, what I mean with "not reliable enough": After I configured my sumpod for hours, I can get very satisfying results with nice prints. This might work for a couple of prints (of different print times) without any issue. But suddenly, after a couple of perfect layers, the extrusion falters or the hot-end jams completely. There are a couple of explanations for this.
There is the whole hot-end issue. As also mentioned many times in the forum, the sumpod hot-ends don't always work as they should. The issue with PLA is, that it conducts heat very well, has a low glass transition temperature and swells, when it gets hot. In other words; the stiff filament turns gooey pretty fast, expands in the hot-end into all directions and the goo starts to grow along the filament. So, the bigger the gooey part, the lesser the force applied to the filament is getting passed straight down to the nozzle. The goo starts pressing to the sides of the hot-end tube, until the whole PLA goo-plug stalls, which is also known as jamming. To prevent this, newer hot-ends, including the sumpod's, have heat barriers installed (usually made of PEEK) to keep the heat close to the tip. But this is not enough, as even these PEEK parts slowly heat up. That's why most reprapers use a fan to keep the heat barrier cool (not to be mistaken as the cooling fan for the print). Now, with how the sumpod and the hot-ends are constructed, it is hard to keep these PEEK parts cold, as they are sitting inside the mounting adapter.
Somehow, also the aluminium nozzle seems to be a part of the problem. I am no expert in thermodynamics, but brass nozzles are widely agreed on, as working better than aluminium.
Then, there was the unreliable direct extruder, which stalled many times and chewed on the filament. This was the last thing, I got my hands on and was able to solve.
Another thing is the bed leveling problem, which is partly home made. We have the MDF print plate, which unfortunately is hanging a little bit to the front, due to how it is constructed with the rails on the back side. Additionally, my self made heated bed consists of a sandwich of MDF print plate, heat insulation mat, resistance wire and glass plate. You can imagine, that it is not very easy to bring the glass sandwich level on the sloped MDF plate. I installed set screws in each corner. But once the bed is level, it does not need much, to get off level again.
As mentioned before, probably the best approach would be to go for other, proven to work, hot-ends, including new mounts and a properly positioned fan (which is not to be sneezed at). Airtripper is testing J-heads, which look promising. Then, I would disassemble and redesign the print bed, get rid of the chunky MDF plate, maybe install one made of aluminium, install more comfortable set screws and stick the sandwich onto these.
Do you get a feeling for what I mean? Unfortunately, most of these problems are not solved with the newer sumpod basic design either. I'm gonna take a couple of pictures of the printer with its details and put them online tonight. I'll also include pictures of the more and the less satisfying prints as well as the parts to optimise.
Cheers, Andy
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Post by pm on Jan 15, 2013 6:29:35 GMT -5
Hey highcooley, thanks for your explanation. I think I understand what you mean. The question is are these problems solvable for a beginner? My first idea is to use another hotend from another manufacturaer (e.g. printrbot.com), but then someone (me?) has to construct a holder for the new hotend, etc. etc. Your effort is great and it seems that you, by your experience, could solve all these problems. I'm afraid that I could not get the printer to work... don't know for sure... I'm still curious about the whole thing but at the moment it seems that I should save more money to invest in another machine... Nevertheless, your offer is great and I'm in the process of thinking this whole 3D-printer-thing over... and over... and over ;-) It would be great to see some pictures to get a better understanding whats going on. Best Regards, Patrik
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Post by highcooley on Jan 15, 2013 7:48:25 GMT -5
Yap, you're getting pictures soon.
Hmmm, despite being a former electronics technician, I would not describe myself as an expert in 3D printing. The Sumpod was my first printer and it all was and still is a big learning process. In retrospect, I would spend a bit more money for a proven to work printer, to spare myself all the trouble. It should still be a kit to build myself, as I enjoy building stuff a lot. But all needed parts should be included and more importantly, they should work if correctly configured. On the other hand, I learned a lot from all the issues and it helped me during the build of the delta printer.
Of course, you would have to build stuff like the mounting plate by yourself. And I know, it is a pain to do it without a fully equipped workshop. But so far, my Proxon and I where able to accomplish a lot of such stuff.
I think, as an electrician with knowledge in Arduino programming, you got all you need, to bring the printer to work. It is more a question of patience and endurance to get there with a Sumpod. However, although I cannot guarantee success with the measures I suggest, it should not need that much anymore, to make my Sumpod work.
In the end, that's the decision you have to take.
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Post by airtripper on Jan 15, 2013 15:03:09 GMT -5
The only real issue with the MDF Sumpods is the hotend and extruder. I replaced both from the start and have been getting high quality prints ever since. I think Richard should have gone for the proven 3mm filament extruder and hot head instead of the experimental 1.75mm kit.
I'm working towards getting my Sumpod to rout PDBs and some plastics.
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Post by highcooley on Jan 15, 2013 20:29:01 GMT -5
Ok, here we go with the promised pictures: My own designed springs to hold the heated bed in place: Additionally added plugs to comfortably unmount the hot-ends. Note the Z-axis handle to the left: The white thing is a fan duct, which I designed to cool both, the hot-ends as well as the printing part at the same time. But I was not able to print it successfully, as a working fan would be needed to acomplish this difficult part (reprap's hen and egg problem). I canibalised the 40mm fan for my rostock, but a replacement fan is already bought and is ready to be installed: An improvised cooling channel into the hot-end mounting plate. Note, that the fan duct should go all the way down to the print bed: The upgraded extruder I mentioned. The design was kindly shared by stohn. I only have one extruder printed today, as I wanted to print the other one as soon as I was able to print perfectly. But all the mechanical parts needed are ready to be installed: The CF card reader to print without a connection to a PC: The bottom side of the printer with the electronics. I upgraded all five stepper drivers with heat sinks and added another driver circuit to control the hot-end fan. Currently, I operate the printer with two power supplies. The included supply for all the electronics, hot-ends and fans and an old PC power supply solely for the heated bed. Unfortunately, the PC power supply is allready at its limit when driving the heated bed and should be exchanged to a more recent one: And here the three wear and tear things. First, the molten heated bed connectors: The mount of the power connector broke from flipping the printer to the backside while the connector was plugged in for too many times during debugging: One of the reasons for the jamming. The PTFE tube was stretched too much and burst, due to the filament expansion and a cavity inside the hot-end. Richard mentioned a fix for this (removing the two lowest threads from the PEEK insulator. I did this, but the problem is only partly solved...meaning, that it burst again: Here a couple of nice prints: ...and the bad exemples:
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Post by pm on Jan 18, 2013 19:05:17 GMT -5
WOW! All in all a very neat machine and a very good offer... except the skewed prints The advantages of your sumpod are the upgraded extruder and the heatplate. By now I only know that prints with a heatplate could be bigger, am I right here? Or whats the general purpose for a heatplate? Sorry for getting back so late, but in the last days I was thinking the whole thing over and over. I still can't decide which is the best way to go. If I understand you guys right, I only need to change the extruder and the hotend to a proven one and everything should be fine? Sure this is some investment, but if I'm right it would not such a big deal. highcooley, could you give me a price hint and your location, so that I can juggle the numbers (price, shipping, etc.)? If you want via PM. And sorry that I maybe overthink this and not giving you a straight "yes" or "no"... thanks for your patience on me for this Regards, Patrik
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Post by aerogeek on Jan 20, 2013 7:31:02 GMT -5
Hi Everyone,
I am looking to buy a 3D printer also, but getting confused as to which one. Each time i think i have found one i see a lot of problems with delivery etc or low reliability (unless you go for the "budget" 2000 euro models).
So far have looked into Printrbot + , RepRapPro, Sumpod, Soliddoodle. (all budget items).
The sumpod Aluminium to me mechanically one of the best with the belt less X-Y drive but i was wondering if anyone here has worked with this machine yet.
Also if it has the same problems with hot end etc etc as described in the above very nice and detailed account..
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Post by hrlaust on Jan 20, 2013 14:16:03 GMT -5
I have the sumpod alu. I like it, it is working nice and produces some nice prints. Only downside is that the rack and pinion drive is really noisy when its moving fast.. If i had to choose again I would look for a printer with a belt drive and an alu-frame. I have no problems with the hot-end it is working nicely. Although, I have added a fan on the x-carrier to cool the prints, had some heat problems with small parts. Another thing is that there is not a full tutorial how to assembly it (yet), so you pretty mush have to work it out by your own. Although Richard is up for an answer on skype if you are totally lost.
If you can live with the noise, it is a nice looking printer with the capability of producing fine prints.
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Post by aerogeek on Jan 20, 2013 14:38:22 GMT -5
Excuse the questions hrlaust but:
Was the delivery and build smooth?
Do you have dual heads or single?
do you have any vids or photos?
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